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joanwilder aka RaeWhit (joanwilder) wrote,
@ 2008-11-04 01:36:00

This is about as political as you'll see me get here, for reasons I won't get into. I was tempted, over the past few weeks, though, to link to Rand's 'Who is John Galt' speech, but fortunately, I resisted that urge.

So my only political comment is: please vote unless you're dead.

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elfwreck
2008-11-04 02:03 am UTC (link)

I am sorry the political season is stressful for you. Am sorry if you feel like hiding from your f'list or that you'll get stomped on if you speak your mind. FWIW, you've had an effect on me, on my posting--I have damnfew conservative friends online, and I think you're the only one on IJ, and I cherish the reminders that "conservative" doesn't mean "close-minded bigot," which is what I start thinking if I watch too much mainstream news or, gods forbid, accidentally listen to evangelical right-wing radio program bits.

The conservative worldview baffles me. Mostly, I like being baffled. I don't like simultaneously being terrified that I'll lose my family or my basic civil rights, which is why I try to limit my exposure to conservative propaganda. So thank you, for occasionally being a voice for the other side, that I know isn't out to declare me a Horrible Pervert And Unfit Mother.

I have a great love for the Who Is John Galt speech. I read it too young, and I'm sure it warped my ideas about money and economics. (There is probably something very very wrong in putting Atlas Shrugged and The Dispossessed in the same mental niche.)

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joanwilder
2008-11-04 11:31 am UTC (link)

After getting jumped on a few times, I made a promise to myself that, like in the office, religion and politics were going to be things to avoid. I read some political posts, but the minute I see mean-spiritedness, personal slurs, virtual burning in effigy, I hit that back button. After being tarred and feathered the few times I did try to talk on a liberal post, I decided it wasn't worth the time and effort; it didn't stress me so much as disappoint me.

I'm a closet Objectivist. I think at heart it raises a salient point--what happens when you persecute/penalize/ tax the thinkers and innovators, captains of industry to the point that they don't feel they're seeing the just recompense of their efforts/contribution? Most folks scoff and say it'll never happen, what happened in Atlas Shrugged. Just another possible side effect of 'redistributing the wealth'.

I still sit up a bit straighter and smile when I see you've posted. Usually makes my day. :)

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elfwreck
2008-11-04 11:49 am UTC (link)

what happens when you persecute/penalize/ tax the thinkers and innovators, captains of industry to the point that they don't feel they're seeing the just recompense of their efforts/contribution?

OTOH... what we're seeing now is what happens when the low-end workers, especially the minor administrative assistants, are marginalized and oppressed. I don't mean people whose title is "Admin Assist;" I mean typists, receptionists, file clerks and so on. People who do "temp-worker" type jobs, non-creative work, that has to be done well or a business falls apart. Slowly. Invisibly. Lost records, wrongly filled forms, forgotten callbacks, snarky customer service... the people who are assigned to these jobs don't feel valued, so they don't put more attention into them than is required (i.e. than is noticeable by the higher-ups).

There's some notion that non-commercial rewards could replace money--fanfic isn't done for financial consideration. But there are problems when transferring the skills of a creative-for-love effort into economic gain, and no one group seems to have coherent answers for that.

The most obvious economic vs. "for love" problem is childcare--that's an awful lot of effort expended for no financial reward. And it gets wicked tangled when it becomes a source of income if it's done for other people's children, but not your own.

The Objectivist bits I've seen (admittedly, not a whole lot) seem to get blurry when this comes up. They mumble something about "personal satisfaction" and dodge the issue. Also, they seem to miss that not everyone has the force of will to be a Captain Of Industry... Cheryl Brooks & Eddie Willers don't get a place in Galt's capitalist utopia.

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	torino10154 2008-11-04 05:37 am UTC (link)
	It's a good political comment. nods Seeing elfwreck's comment, makes me both curious to hear what you would have to say if some of us weren't shouting our opinions so loudly and to apologize for anything that might have offended you personally. We're all in this together. ;) (Reply to this) (Thread)

joanwilder
2008-11-04 11:34 am UTC (link)

We all are in this together. But IJ/LJ hasn't been a forum for political discussion; it's been a lynching ground for anyone who's a Conservative. Anyone who'd read the prevailing winds in the posts and then post their support of not-Obama would be asking for a whole lot of heartache. I decided that I value my flist, and don't want to muddy that up over politics (and religion, the other flashpoint).

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	klynie1 2008-11-04 08:33 am UTC (link)
	hugs you (Reply to this) (Thread)

	joanwilder 2008-11-04 11:37 am UTC (link)
	hugs you back Soon, t'will be over. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	alisanne 2008-11-04 09:16 am UTC (link)
	hugs BTW, I ADORED Atlas Shrugged. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	joanwilder 2008-11-04 11:36 am UTC (link)
	Thanks, Ali. Btw, Obama would HATE Atlas Shrugged. When I was in college, I belonged to the Objectivist student group, and that probably did more to set my current political stances than anything else in my life. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	alisanne 2008-11-04 11:59 am UTC (link)
	Yes he would. I don't agree with Obama on everything, or even many things, but I did vote for him. When it came down to it I couldn't see voting for McCain given the state if the nation and the world. But I suspect you and I agree on the fundamentals. :) (Reply to this) (Parent)

veridian_dair
2008-11-04 01:03 pm UTC (link)

I'm sitting here rather stunned at myself that I am not familiar with John Galt and clearly I ought to be. I'm a conservative (although I'm about the quirkiest one you'll no doubt ever meet, fitting few of the right wing stereotypes) AND I'm married to a very conservative Economist (who's now putting his mojo to use at the evil captialist empire Microsoft...that was said tongue in cheek, in case you couldn't tell. What hole have I been living in?

(Need to poke hubby about this today)

I have not voted yet due to a physical therapy appointment this morning, but I'm heading to the polls soon with kids in tow so they can see how the process works. School field trip! (I homeschool).

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elfwreck
2008-11-04 01:23 pm UTC (link)

When I first read Atlas Shrugged, I called up the sometimes-boyfriend and said, "You gotta read this book!" He said, "what's it about?" And I answered, "it's about a thousand pages long."

In small print. With dense paragraphs. Aforementioned John Galt speech runs 50 pages.

Definitely worth reading. Especially, definitely worth reading before getting a headful of Objectivist info from websites and such, which would be like learning about Star Trek by attending conventions rather than watching the series. (Can be done--but if you want to develop your own perspective, you start with canon and move out from there.)

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	joanwilder 2008-11-04 01:28 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, I agree with elfwreck that you should read the book. It's interesting to me that many who read the book, skip the speech. She has another excellent book, 'The Fountainhead', which is shorter and touches on the 'right' of intellectual property ownership. I had to stand in line for an hour; not too bad. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	elfwreck 2008-11-04 01:49 pm UTC (link)
	There is a tremendous paucity of Atlas Shrugged slash. The D'Anconia/Galt vs D'Anconia/Rearden OTP wars should be vicious, wanky, and full of intellectual justifications that have nothing to do with anything in the book, but draw heavily on recent Fortune magazine articles. And there should be Dagny/Cheryl femslash. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	joanwilder 2008-11-04 01:55 pm UTC (link)
	HAAA, Atlas slash! Yes! Oh, I could so see Francisco/John, or maybe even Francisco/Quentin, or John/Quentin. I don't know about Dagny/Cheryl, though. Dagny would require an intellectual equal, I think, although maybe not. You're right, that fic would be an ideological wet dream. And everyone would still skip John's speeches. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	elfwreck 2008-11-04 02:41 pm UTC (link)
	Francisco/Hank, obviously... it's the pairing that'll survive the canon ending. Dagny would require an equal for a long-term relationship, but might be willing to "enlighten" Cheryl about what she's missing. And about how wrong her brother is about her. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	joanwilder 2008-11-04 02:44 pm UTC (link)
	Mmmmm, do I look like a writer who cares about my pairing surviving the canon ending? It's so much fun to blow that canon ending off.... I thought Cheryl a bit of a whiner. But I could just see Dagny proselytizing her... (Reply to this) (Parent)

	elfwreck 2008-11-04 02:00 pm UTC (link)
	Wait, I missed that. They skip the speech?! I thought the rest of the book was framework for the speech. (And, y'know, inspiration for fanfic, of which there is not enough.) (Reply to this) (Parent)

veridian_dair
2008-11-04 03:14 pm UTC (link)

I voted! They are expecting an 85% turnout in my state today because the last governor's race (and the same two candidates are running again today) the winner was only ahead after three recounts by a mere 135 votes! Mine candidate lost last time; I'm hoping for different outcome this time.

I did ping hubby; no surprise he knew of the book and it's on his "going to read that one of these days" lists. I'm kind of surprised he hasn't. If I ask him tonight to put it in his Amazon shopping cart he'll have a coronary (his wife...who shudders when she hears the word "economics" asking for this book...the world must be off rotation...)

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	joanwilder 2008-11-04 03:19 pm UTC (link)
	One of the major themes of the book is how pure capitalism should work, but besides that, it's a good story. As was already mentioned, it's HUGE, but when I read it the first time, I didn't sleep for two days because I was riveted to the book. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	veridian_dair 2008-11-04 03:23 pm UTC (link)
	I can hear it from hubby now (because it's been said before): "Why is when I want you to read this stuff you roll your eyes, and when a friend suggests it you find it suddenly interesting?" Um....I need to prepare snappy comeback. thinks (Reply to this) (Parent)

synn
2008-11-04 06:02 pm UTC (link)

I think it's horrible that people jump on you for your political views. I went to college in an extremely liberal area and the same thing used to happen to the conservatives there-- it's hypocritical, and rude. I may or may not agree, but I'd more than happily hear out your opinion on who and what you believe in. Anyone's, really, but I'd actually *want* to hear yours, because you've proven you're intelligent and I trust you to think analytically about the information you're given.

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joanwilder
2008-11-04 06:26 pm UTC (link)

I'm a big girl; I can take people jumping on me for my political views, but the point is that this is my flist, and most of the time we're bound together by happier things, and I'd prefer to not engage; I could say something much more unkind here, but I won't. I went through it when I was in college too. I was a card-carrying member of the YAF (Young Americans for Freedom, which, incidentally, delayed my FBI clearance when I entered the USMC), and was routinely heckled and worse by SDS members who tried to disrupt our meetings.

More than anything, synn, I've been saddened by the way I've seen conservatives stero-typed by people on IJ/LJ that I like. I'm not thin-skinned, but I'd never caricature Democrats as...see, I just can't do it. There are folks on both sides who are lemmings, but I'll give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and honor their decisions/ideology. It's the American way and should be an honorable one.

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verdenia
2008-11-06 01:20 am UTC (link)

Yaye for voting! :P

After reading comments--I hope I've not said things that offended you.

You're right that there are lemmings on both sides.

I grew up kinda Libertarian, and have been registered as Decline To State since I was 18.

I do tend to vote mostly Dem because of the right to choose, gay marriage, and the environment--all those hot button issues. :P

But I can see that we don't want to discourage innovation by "redistributing" too much wealth. ;S

We *are* all in this together. Gotta keep writing our congresspeople and fighting for our rights, and what we want. :P

*HUGS*

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